It’s a new year, and Cindy has cracked the code on how to maximize her business opportunities! Through great marketing and lead gen strategies, she has created a successful model where multiple businesses feed one another. From property management to vacation rentals to home sales - learn how she has utilized creative property marketing and open house strategies to dramatically grow her business.

Podcast available on iTunes and Stitcher.

Get Notified of Future Episodes

We want to thank Todd Tramonte and Dr. Cynthia Tant for sharing their knowledge with us and the real estate community! It’s important for us now more than ever to band together and support one another through these uncertain times.

Here is a transcription of the entire discussion

Kevin McCarthy:

... everybody to the newest Keeping it Real. Happy 2021. Happy new year. To start off the new year, I have a guest on that I am super excited about. Her name is Cindy Tant. She goes by Doc Cindy and I believe, she is the first biomechanics expert and former professor that we've ever featured on our show.

Todd Tramonte:

Well, [crosstalk 00:00:24], Kevin. I actually am also a bio-

Kevin McCarthy:

Oh. See, there's that... I see Todd's throwing me a curve ball here.

Todd Tramonte:

[crosstalk 00:00:30]

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah.

Kevin McCarthy:

The second one after Todd. She also has a really cool and interesting business model, where she's actually doing two different businesses that are able to feed each other.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Those are three.

Kevin McCarthy:

When I heard her story... Oh, its three? See, this is going to be good. When I heard her story, I thought, "Wow, this is so cool. Todd, let's get her on the program." Todd works with her, in helping her with some of her business stuff too. Our co-host here today is a long-time guest of the show. Actually, our first Keeping it Real guest, Todd Tramonte from Dallas, Texas. Did I already mention that Cindy is in Pensacola, Florida is her area. Let's get this kicked off. Cindy, maybe you can just talk a little bit about how you got into real estate.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Sure. Well, first, I want to thank you, Kevin and also Todd, for allowing me to come on board and share some of the things that I do or have done. This really isn't Pensacola, Florida back here, but it is a gift that one of my sellers had given to me. I initially, my previous career, I call myself a recovering academic because I was a college professor. I actually got my PhD up at Texas Woman's University in Denton, there around the Dallas-Fort Worth Area.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I came to the University of West Florida, which is right here in Pensacola in the, oh God, early mid '90s, I guess it was, as a professor and my brother and I started investing in real estate. We were able to invest in real estate, got some really good properties, didn't know what we were doing, but we had a very good real estate agent who was an investor, so whatever she couldn't buy or she introduced us to it so it put us on that mindset of real estate investing.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

That was again, back in the '90s. I left academia in about 2000 and get into the real estate as a [inaudible 00:02:36]. I actually first started doing IT work for a local real estate company because I had that IT background, computer background and then I found out that I was doing websites and helping all of them making more money than I was. I said, "Well, I might as well try this real estate deal." That's how I ended up with it.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

About 25 years ago, left academia, became an investor. I've got my dates here. About 17 years ago, I got into real estate as an agent. 10 years ago, started my own brokerage, just one month before the BP oil spill hit Pensacola Beach, which that was a learning experience in itself. Then the other thing that really started happening for me was, I was in another group of building businesses and so I started creating businesses around the real estate market.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I became a broker, very small boutique brokerage, seven, eight real estate agents, got into property management, long-term property management. Oh, my real estate brokerage is called Gulf Coast Home Experts. Then I got into the property management seven years ago, Gulf Coast Real Estate Management is that name. Three years ago, I started getting into the short-term rental management because we are a vacation destination here and got into Airbnbs.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I created different entities for each one of these businesses to feed the businesses and then I purchased a building. It's an old historical home here. It's 120 years old that I actually run the businesses out of, but then the businesses pay for the, obviously, the building and also long-term tenant upstairs and two Airbnbs in the back. I've put that as... I look at it as a pie chart with the three businesses, and so-

Todd Tramonte:

Let me call a quick time out, Cindy, because I know more than the average bear about Cindy's business, luckily. There were a few other businesses in that journey as well that she's bought and sold, but let me just start by saying to all of our real estate friends that watch these Keeping it Reals, listening to what Cindy just said for a lot of us, for a lot of you, probably just sounded insane and complicated and maybe even messy. I mean, I think it's fair to say that. Would you [crosstalk 00:05:07], Cindy?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I would agree with that. Yes.

Todd Tramonte:

Yeah. That's how it sounded to me when I met Cindy a couple of years ago. What I want you to tell folks, Cindy, and what I think will be fascinating for people, because people might be interested in different parts of your story, went from academia to real estate. I was an investor then I got into brokerage. I had a boutique brokerage, or I do property rentals. Whoa, whoa, whoa, vacation rentals, tell me more about that, okay, brokerage.

Todd Tramonte:

There's so many things that could be interesting, but when I started to learn about your business, I started saying like, "You got way too much going on." I mean, you're spread way too thin, there's no way you can do all of these things with excellence, but then you started some magic and you've brought it to what you were just explaining, which is, it's one picture now, whether it's a pie chart or whatever, but instead of it being all these different brands and entities, it really is this really cool.

Todd Tramonte:

This is where I think people should lean in. This is why I wanted people to hear from you, is, it's this beautiful sustainable deal that's feeding itself more and more and more opportunity. Can you just try to summarize that for people? Kevin and I will pick at it and help you break it down, but can you try to paint a picture of what that looks like, how those things help each other grow?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Sure. Well, first, I was telling Kevin that I met you, Todd, at the first Unofficial Real Geeks seminar two years ago and then we becoming more in the mastermind group with you, Todd, and working with you, where you have been able to help me make that make more sense. Let's just say that.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

From the sales perspective, when you think about this, I enjoy working with investors. I've been an investor and so I've been able to, from a sales perspective, I work more with listings but I'm looking at that person who's an investor who not only am I going to sell them the property, but if their plan, if their desire is to hold the property, then I will also be their property manager. Well, not me, but my company will do their property management.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

If they don't want to do the property management, they would prefer to flip it, I have those vendors and peoples that can also do that. That's another category, but I could help them do that. Because I became involved more in the short-term rental, I've also gone with individuals who are interested in doing the Airbnb and the vacation rentals. They're investing, or they're applying that property. I didn't even think about it but two years ago, I ended up selling 12 properties to guests who came to my Airbnbs, which I really-

Todd Tramonte:

Time out.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah.

Todd Tramonte:

Is everyone catching that?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah.

Todd Tramonte:

These are people that paid to come to Cindy's market and get in front of her and by being a renter of that property, they've said, "I love to come to your community and do the things and see the things and be there." Then she's going, "Well, would you just want to buy one?" 12 of them in one year said, "That would be great." It's rare that broke people rent beachfront vacation properties.

Todd Tramonte:

By definition, I'm just trying to point out what I was seeing and Cindy's very kind to give me any credit for helping her do this. She's the one busting her tail in Pensacola to put this together and employing people and creating value and giving these guests incredible experiences and you know what an investor thinks when they hear a realtor, right? They think moron.

Todd Tramonte:

That's not what they're thinking when they run into PhD, Doc Cindy, they're thinking, "This lady can show me more opportunity than I could see on my own." Now to her point, they buy. If they flip, she'll get them the vendors and then help them sell it. If they rent, she'll manage it and then, every one of those tenants is a potential home buyer at some point down the road. If they want to buy a vacation rental, she'll help them buy it and then she'll manage the Airbnb VRBO process. She's a... What do you call it, super host?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Super host, yeah.

Todd Tramonte:

Yeah. Then every single person that comes and rents there, she's very tactful about it. It's not in their face, but every one of them is a potential buyer and then if they buy, they may buy and want to rent it out when they don't use it. Now she's created a new investor. If they want to sell it ever, she's probably already got a buyer for it from her other investors. Are you starting to see how all of this is feeding itself?

Todd Tramonte:

Now, one of my favorite things, Cindy, will you just tell them really quickly and then we'll let Kevin ask some questions because I can see his cheeks rising because he thinks it's cool too, will you explain how you're communicating with all the people that are renting from you? Basically, the newsletter mentality of staying in touch with people that have been visitors and tenants.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Right. Well, if anyone who has rented an Airbnb or a VRBO, obviously we have that platform and this year I'm moving away. I'm still going to use that platform, but I want to also have my own website and everything for returning people to come to me. But within each property, I also have a block of information. Part of that is showing them that they could... I call the little slice of heaven, if you're interested in purchasing while you're here, I'll be glad to show you investment property like this.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Now, some of those 12 people were actually just in town that wanted to find regular houses to buy so they're not all necessarily investors. We're big in military community. What happens is, if one person comes into town, they tell everybody else that's coming in, their squadron or whatever else. One of them was, it ended up with one person being five properties who the whole squadron bought from me and that was because the person stayed right at the Airbnb.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

But I do, do a newsletter. I stay in touch with people. In the newsletter I let people know who we are. It is the sales brokerage. It is the long-term rental management and the short-term properties. I'm getting better at doing more and more social media and doing some more picture, taking more Facebook kinds of things and stuff like that. I'm getting better at doing that. It's just, because we're a big military community, we also have people roll over a lot more than in other communities. [crosstalk 00:12:06]-

Todd Tramonte:

I think that's a writer downer for anyone, because I talk to agents all over the country, whether it's through Real Geeks or coaching or whatever, who are like, "Well, my market's different. Well, I'm in a military market, but I'm in a secondary, I'm in a vacation home market. I'm in a seasonal market." Cindy has taken a market that could otherwise be really challenging. I think she would acknowledge that her traditional brokerage piece compared to most of us is a relatively low price point.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah, [inaudible 00:12:32].

Todd Tramonte:

Right?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yes.

Todd Tramonte:

This is another way that she's solved that riddle by saying, "Well, I'm going to have other ways to increase my averages, increase other forms of income and revenue." Where, I think, Kevin, you and I both would probably tell most agents, "Do not go start four businesses. That is a bad idea."

Todd Tramonte:

I don't know if we have any questions already or if you have questions for Cindy. I would love for people to get to spend five hours with her like our mastermind members do or like I do, but I'm trying to stay out of the way so if there's anything else brewing already or you've got something on the tip of your tongue, go ahead.

Kevin McCarthy:

Yeah. We've already got people pitching in here. Dave Caraway is saying, "How do you connect with the Airbnb renters to convert them into a buyer?" Usually, people asking questions would like to hear tactically like, what exactly you're doing? Are you sending an email? Are you calling them? What's in the email? How does that work?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, I actually... It's upfront in my profile on Airbnb and VRBO that I am a realtor, and that I can help them find a home or an investment property when they come and visit so when they go start, to looking for that. I also have a Facebook page that is out there, people want to look at it, but the majority of them are coming from looking and seeing that I'm a realtor when they're coming to me.

Kevin McCarthy:

You're not cold calling them when they rent from you or doing anything like that, it's just the fact that when they rent from you, they see on your profile that you're a realtor and they just come to you like an inbound lead after that?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah.

Todd Tramonte:

Well, timeout. Timeout. This is where Cindy's being modest. She's been really strategic about managing that visitor's experience from day negative five. They haven't booked yet and they're considering what is it like to go and visit there. As soon as they see the booking opportunities, she's already seeding like, "Come get a slice of heaven for a week or a few days, but you may decide you want to own."

Todd Tramonte:

That message, they're seeing it all throughout the booking process and then they're booking. Then there are strategies, I don't know whether you want to share or not share Cindy, but there's some things that they might see in the unit while they're there that would remind them of that as well every time they grab the TV remote or whatever the case is. Then Cindy is running the management process, not just the booking.

Todd Tramonte:

If somebody goes over to solve a problem or fix something or replenish something or whatever, this is a message that is very respectfully, but consistently being delivered before, during and after their stay. Cindy, she's a PhD, she's obviously very smart, but she's not going to steamroll any of us with how smart and how effective she is.

Todd Tramonte:

I'm just trying to slow her down enough so that everyone else can really be amazed by her like I am. I hope that's valuable, otherwise I'll just shut up. She's acting like it's so simple, but she's making it simple because it's just so logical. It just makes sense.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, and I grew up do all this by myself. I have a property manager who manages my long-term rentals and I have maintenance crews. We have 65 doors right now. I'm just basically the owner and the broker. It's just running like clockwork, yeah. I don't do much with that at all, that part of it. The same thing with the short. Now, I like the Airbnbs and the VRBOs. I like communicating with the people.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I probably do more on the marketing and everything with that right now than other people would, but I have the cleaners who go and clean. Again, because I have had the maintenance people for the long-term, if something happens in a unit, I can send somebody quickly to get it done. I have the infrastructure that supports this whole thing that's going on.

Todd Tramonte:

Hey Kevin, how many Real Geeks users are just agents that you know of do you think are interested in owning or being affiliated with short-term vacation rentals?

Kevin McCarthy:

I don't think anyone has that on their radar as something that's interesting to them.

Todd Tramonte:

Yeah. I think a ton of agents think it's cool, but they're afraid of it. They're afraid of it.

Kevin McCarthy:

You're right.

Todd Tramonte:

Yes. Everyone's like, "I know how residential rentals work." I mean, you can't do residential real estate very long without needing to know something about that, but this [crosstalk 00:17:08]-

Kevin McCarthy:

Well, it's a different world and it's not as clear how you make money. In regular real estate, you do a transaction, you get your commission check, it just happens and it's a big check. If I'm thinking about rentals, I'm wondering, is there as much money in that for me?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, let me give you a prime example. In my building, my commercial building, it's a historical home. There's four suites to it. The first suite is the commercial building, the entity where the three businesses pay the rent for the suite, for one suite. The upstairs is a long-term renter who is paying your regular normal rent, which for here, it's a one bedroom. It's $700 a month, historical rental.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

The back two units, one is a studio, one's a one bedroom, but we were only getting from a long-term rental perspective, we were only getting about $700 a month. Again, we're a lower income, lower rental area here in Pensacola, but when I put them both into short-term rentals, meaning the Airbnb, I'm making sometimes close to 4,000 a month, short-term rentals because I'm renting them between $50 a night for the little studio. From 50 to 55, sometimes 60, depending on the time of year we are.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Then in the one bedroom is from 65, up to 85 a night. I'm located downtown so a lot of people like to be in the downtown area. You're 15 minutes to the Navy Base. Before our bridge got slammed by barges during Hurricane Sally, you were only 20 minutes to the beach. Now it's an hour that we have to drive around, but-

Todd Tramonte:

I think the bigger point for people to take away from this though, Cindy is, you just turn the exact same property with the exact same cost or cost basis five to six times more revenue and the costs stayed the same. To Kevin's point, when agents are like, 'Man, it seems like there's something going on over there, but I don't really know," Cindy's figured this out.

Todd Tramonte:

I'll go so far as to say, I don't want to give away too much, but one of our team members bought a vacation rental from Cindy in Pensacola and she's managing it and they're thrilled. Now, maybe some people watching want to do that, reach out to Cindy. I'm sure Kevin will tell you how to get ahold of her before we wrap up but my point is, most of us have some of that going on in our market.

Todd Tramonte:

The example she just gave us was not gorgeous beach front, it's the back of a house, one quadrant of a house in downtown Pensacola, which all due respect is a great place to visit, but it's not on anyone's top... it's not New York city. It's not LA. It's a place that a lot of people go, but again, they think beach and this isn't even beach. Cindy is finding ways to generate great returns for her investors and great returns for herself and more reciprocal opportunities for short-term rental, long-term rental, sales, flips, buy and hold, and they're all feeding each other.

Todd Tramonte:

Imagine the number of people... I've asked her this a lot of times, but for the sake of everybody listening, in a normal vacation rental in Pensacola, through VRBO or Airbnb, how many people come through that one unit per year, Cindy?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Oh God. Well, we're more of a summer rental on the beach here versus South Florida is winter months.

Todd Tramonte:

Yeah, but just conservatively, how many people do you think will come through there in a year?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Oh, how many weeks we got in a year?

Todd Tramonte:

52 here in Texas.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah. I know, 52 regular. 40.

Todd Tramonte:

Okay, so let's just say it's 40 conservatively. Every one of those units, she has 40 people that visited because they thought it was really cool that might want to buy one or worst case can be incentivized or invited to just come back and be a renter again. Every one of them builds this pipeline of opportunity.

Todd Tramonte:

That's the thing that fascinates me because Kevin, you and I have talked about this and a lot of agents and I have talked about, where do we create ongoing repetitive revenue opportunities in a business that's built on these every five to 10 years? It's a nice chunk of change, but it is not regular at all. That's why I love what Cindy's doing. I don't know if there's any other questions, but I think that's [crosstalk 00:21:41]-

Kevin McCarthy:

It's dope. It's so cool because I work with agents all the time that are trying to figure out how to generate leads. How can I get good leads for a low cost? I need to call my sphere. I'll run ads. Well, Cindy's leads pay her to become a lead, because they want to rent with her. It's interesting how that whole thing gets flipped on its head.

Kevin McCarthy:

I'm just curious, Cindy, what was your mindset or how did you figure this out originally that these two businesses could feed off each other, that you could start these two things? What was going through your mind? Did you start with the real estate and then go, "How can I take this to the next level," and just brainstorm different ideas or were you inspired by seeing this work for somebody else, or how did you get there?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, initially I was in another mastermind group that was... this was several years ago, about 15 years ago, where we concentrated more on creating businesses and so then I started. Todd knows I had some other businesses that I created within that I also created and sold like a landscaping business, like a rehab business. I said, "I can't handle this anymore," but I created it and then sold it off, but then I started looking at the property management.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I did know that would fit because I was an investor and then actually, out of all of the real... majority of the real estate agents that work with me or have worked with me in the past have been investors, so they've been attracted to work with me too from that standpoint, from a training standpoint. If I'm going to sell you a house and it's a fourplex, well, you got to have a property manager to manage it, so why go to somebody else? Use me as your property manager.

Kevin McCarthy:

Yeah. I mean, it makes sense when you think about it, I just, I don't think I would have been able to make that leap from being in the real estate industry to starting an entire new business that works together like that.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah. That's a great question. Now, the Airbnb was, again, like this building that I'm in right now, I was managing it long-term for somebody else who owned it and then I told them, I said, "Hey, let me try do an Airbnb. I will pay you the $700 a month that I'm currently renting it out." They said, "Oh, great. We'll have the $700 a month." Well, they didn't know what I was making over $3,000 off of the Airbnb. I bought the building from him and they were happy, but it was like, I tried it and I went, "Oh, this is really good."

Todd Tramonte:

Imagine doing that for your clients. Now, it's fun to do it for yourself but imagine if you had the ability to find just fantastic amounts of new revenue that they never knew was there. Now, I remember standing in front of a whiteboard with Cindy when we had all of our businesses all over this thing and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, there's so much going on here," and seeing her start to see the picture of putting it all together.

Todd Tramonte:

Again, the credit goes to Cindy, but it's been so much fun for me to see her see these things come together. She was doing almost all of this way before me, but to see it start to feed itself more and more and more, and she's still growing this. I mean, you can tell, she sees an opportunity, she takes action and she's super smart. Being smart and willing to take action are both required but it's been so much fun to see her do that.

Todd Tramonte:

Now, if you're willing to share Cindy, about the way, to your last point, that it's benefiting the agents that are joining you on your team and in your brokerage and how it's benefiting them to go and build their businesses.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, yeah. Because I have a number of investors that I'm currently working with and we... A typical investor, they don't think of an Airbnb as an investment here in town, they're always looking out on the beach. That's a different market. But here in town, because we have a very historical downtown area with a lot of historical homes and a lot of housing that you can rent a room, the Airbnb market set off.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

The first part of last year because of COVID, we were shut down. I mean, it was... We had two months of complete rentals and of course, the state of Florida got shut down on all short-term rentals so we had two months of nothing, but because I'm a military group here, the military got stranded here. They couldn't move to their next location, because they were not allowed to go to overseas and then people that were coming in were stuck. I was able to fill those units that had just been wiped out of short term for a month or two or three-months person during the slow time of the year, which is this time during our wintertime.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

People that have come in and they want to also share as an agent and even my property manager is an investor also, but then they have a different attitude on how they help people that they're working with. Well, maybe just don't want to do a long-term rental, let's look at a short-term Airbnb rental. Then once someone buys that like a house downtown that one of my investors has purchased, he couldn't believe how much money he was making. He goes, "Let's go find some more." Basically, that's how it's evolved into that.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah, we still don't have enough inventory either to buy things like that, that we want more downtown, but we're also in a good community where we don't... Now, a lot of people may be in cities that are really not good Airbnb, there are a lot of restrictions. There's a lot of things like that so you really have to be cautious before you jump into this, but we're in a community that we don't have any restrictions, we don't have all that, and we still pay our taxes and things, but it's a resort town.

Todd Tramonte:

Well, that's the beauty of that type of investment is, I can be in Dallas and buy one in your market. I mean, you don't need to manage it all day long if you're going to go do something like this. A couple of quick points I wanted to make, Cindy, and just to get you to share with people, she joked early, well, joked, I don't know if maybe she was crying, about how she started her brokerage and then there was the BP oil spill.

Todd Tramonte:

Well then she's also been through about five hurricanes. I would love for you to talk... I mean, she's just a fighter. She just comes back and wins every time, but will you tell people how creative you got after this last hurricane and how it has created a surge in your business?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Oh, okay. Well, we did have... Well, with the COVID stuff and everything first and how I [crosstalk 00:28:47]-

Todd Tramonte:

When you started marketing storm damaged homes.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Storm damaged homes, yeah. We have Hurricane Sally, oh gosh, September, I guess it was. During this period of time and I alluded to it, that our bridge was knocked out by... 22 barges, basically ran into our bridge that goes down to... not all of them, but they were all over town. They got beached up everywhere. We can't go across the bridge that we could before so we have to go all the way around.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I went out and I got a hundred signs. I said, "Sell your storm damaged home, put a website up there, put a phone number up there," and every place, because to get to the beach and to get to Pensacola because of people having to work at different... back from the beach out, we just put signs because there's traffic. They're sitting in traffic. They're sitting in Dallas traffic, which we don't have, like [inaudible 00:29:51] Pensacola Beach like you guys have.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

We just put signs at all the intersections that we could find that they were going to be sitting there so that they could do that. We actually, I guess our third house is going to be closed next week, storm damaged home. One of them, again, it's a hundred thousand dollar house, but it still had a tree through the roof and we had five offers on it. I mean, it was crazy, but yeah, we've gone through hurricanes. We do that.

Todd Tramonte:

Yeah. I think the illustration for everyone, including us watching is, A, that you don't have to have a PhD to do what Cindy just did, but B, we all have crazy stuff happening in our market. She's had more than her fair share, but if you're willing to be creative and create a solution, it doesn't necessarily have to be these three or four simultaneously multifaceted businesses, it's just being willing to be creative and take action.

Todd Tramonte:

That's an example of pretty simple idea. Hey, there's a bunch of people that are sick of their houses getting hit by hurricanes and they don't want to fix it anymore, they just want to sell this time and every one of them is going to be on the same road, stuck in traffic. I'm going to go make a hundred signs and force them to look at it. Eventually, the ones that really are motivated are going to call me or email me and we'll sell their place and selling their place might lead to more of this other circular cyclical self-fulfilling self-feeding wonderful business.

Todd Tramonte:

I'm just so intrigued by Cindy's business and the way she does it. I'm just glad people are getting to see some of what she's up to and maybe they'll want to reach out to, or whatever. I don't know. Maybe it'll just inspire you in your market but, I mean, what are people thinking Kevin?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

[crosstalk 00:31:35] I thought you maybe were alluding to was open houses.

Todd Tramonte:

Oh, yeah.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I mean, now, maybe you don't do open houses and maybe you don't like doing open houses, but in Florida, even though it's COVID, we're still wide open. I mean, all of our restaurants are open. Everything's open. Everybody wears... well, no, 10% of the people wear masks around here. But anyways, Todd had a program that I started looking at for open houses and it was perfect for COVID because when the first six months of the year coming into June 1st, we were literally dead.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I was working on marketing and everything else, but anyways, did an open house because, advertised it seven days out, wouldn't let anybody into the house, even agents, because COVID related, not going to the house. First one I did, the house is $300,000 house and very cute house, had everything. People had to wait outside. I mean, we had almost 30 people show up. Yeah, I think, I believe that was 30 people. Did a lot of advertising during the week, is a great area.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

We wouldn't let more than four people in, and we did all the cleaning. We did all that. They had to wear masks. Got three offers that day on them. The thing that I found for the very first one that I did, COVID had just basically just happened and everybody wanted to talk about it so we ended up standing outside and talking in groups, doing our social distancing for an hour, two hours. Well, out of that, not only did I get the sale right from that open house-

Todd Tramonte:

Which never happens.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

[inaudible 00:33:22] all of mine have, and that's what I'm telling you.

Todd Tramonte:

That's the crazy thing. Go ahead.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

It worked. Then I picked up a couple that I ended up selling their condo on the beach, plus a home in town, which is 1.5 million off of an open house, between the two combined. But then when I did their open house out on the beach, again, got an offer, but I met a new agent that I have now. In his first two months of the business, he ended up as an investor, buying a different condo, but doing about 1.2 million in his first month or two in the business, but he's an investor from an open house that I met.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Then it just has gone that, but I do the open houses and I keep them to the point that you can't see it except the two hours that we do the open house on Saturday, whether it's vacant or whether it's got a family in there, it's fully furnished or anything else, we're not letting anybody in during that time. It's just has created sales or offers, I should say, and contracts at every single open house, which is [crosstalk 00:34:33]-

Todd Tramonte:

The thing I would point out real quick, just for everybody's benefit, because some of this stuff sounds like, "Wow, what a lucky win for you. How am I supposed to duplicate that?" We have an open house system, that's what Cindy's talking about but that's for another thing. She's doing things that other people aren't doing. That's the point I want to make.

Todd Tramonte:

When the hurricane hit, most people just whined and complained or they kept doing what they were doing, and Cindy got creative and did something different. When everything got locked... I don't know if you guys have done the math, but her entire business got shut down, legally mandated for 60 plus days, then there was a hurricane and she still had an incredible year, which we can talk about in a minute.

Todd Tramonte:

But the takeaway for me, and for all of us, I think, is that she's out there taking action and she's doing things that other people aren't doing. Nobody was doing open houses. She took our system, which we trained her on, but then she modified it for her current COVID environment and it actually turned out to be a huge benefit.

Todd Tramonte:

There wasn't any place else for people to go. They wanted to talk, it was a safe environment to do it. I don't remember how many times she did it, but it was eight or nine or 10 times and sold the house every time and picked up. Because of the unique strategy for the open house, got more people there and picked up more clients for the future.

Todd Tramonte:

We can talk about the specifics of that later, but I think the thing I hope people take away from Cindy is, she's being just creative enough, she's not trying to be brilliant, but just creative enough to be different and she's getting after it, no excuses, oil spills, hurricanes, COVID, she's just getting after it.

Todd Tramonte:

Do you want to... There may be some questions coming in Cindy, but do you want to give people an arc of the whole year of how your business turned out, even with all that craziness by doing all this stuff?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Oh yeah. Well, I think I can look at the numbers because like it was pretty scary. I'm more of a listing agent, not a buyer's agent, and so the company and everything, we increased the buyer percentage from the first up to June 1st, increased our sales by 41% from the buyer's side. But from the listing side, we did a 134% more business.

Kevin McCarthy:

Wow.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah.

Kevin McCarthy:

That's amazing.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

We do have, some of the people that are in our group, I mean, I know our price points... Now, the beach is a different story. I mean, there was a high end, everything, but in town, I mean, just last week and tomorrow I'm selling a $65,000 house. Most people go, "Where can we get a $65,000 house?" But, you can in Pensacola and investors have them and then they do cashflow because they have rents over 800 to $900 a month.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

There's a difference there but the thing that happened was, it just like the fire hose went [inaudible 00:37:23] and it also did it with the bnbs. Everybody, all of a sudden, they wanted to come visit and they didn't want to be in a hotel because they wanted to be away from everybody else and all my places are individual houses or people where they're not sharing stuff with everybody.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I have found, recently, people are driving from Texas to South Florida or South Florida to Texas, and they use Pensacola as a stopping point so they'll just rent it for a day, which is great. But, I guess, it's been a lot of fun since June. It wasn't a lot of fun and then the hurricane hit in September and so then we just re-figured, because we lost... Fortunately, we didn't lose any of our houses or any of our properties that we were renting. We didn't lose any of those to the hurricane other than one leaky roof but we ended up fixing that, but-

Todd Tramonte:

Are there any questions Kevin? Because I've got a few more, but I want to make sure people get [crosstalk 00:38:28]-

Kevin McCarthy:

Yeah. Cindy, do you only take investor listings or do you only take a home that would make a good short-term rental or will you do any and just a regular single family?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I will do anything regular too. I just, me, myself, I like to and prefer to work with investors, but my other agents will do other homes and other properties. Yeah, and we will do other things like that.

Kevin McCarthy:

What percentage is that? Would you say 90% of your transactions are these investors short-term rental types of transactions or are you [crosstalk 00:38:58]?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

For me personally, probably about 50%.

Kevin McCarthy:

Okay.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I have a big referral base here because I've also been here for a long period of time. Whatever the referrals and whether they're moving up, downsizing, up-sizing, or because they're military, they're moving in and out every three to five years. Some of them are moving out, in and out because they're pilots, they're training for pilots. They'll come in, they'll buy a little condo for investment and they are out within nine months to 10 months.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

That's a whole different market too. They're just in, they are pilots, they're coming in, they're getting their training and they're leaving, or they're coming back after they've retired or they're coming back as flight instructors. Once you get connected with the Naval Academy or something like that, they're just coming in and they're renting your places too. You want to stay with them as good renters, because they will not destroy your property.

Kevin McCarthy:

Makes sense. This question isn't from chat, this is just for me. What I'm noticing with you Cindy is that, you're not afraid to try something new or something different that nobody else is doing. Sometimes it works fantastically and pays off, but I think sometimes it doesn't work. I think I'm curious about how you recognize, hey, this thing's not working. Like you said, you had several businesses that you decided to shut them off. How do you make that call or how do you decide to give up on something and move on?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, that's an excellent question. Some of those other businesses I had partners and so we decided we would go our separate ways and so that was the first. I was the one who proposed the business, got the people together, put together the businesses and then ran the business part of it while we had done... different people had different parts to it. Once we got to that point, oh yeah, no I'm... Yes, I failed at quite a few so I have no problem [crosstalk 00:40:53]-

Kevin McCarthy:

If you're going to try something new, you're going to fail. That's just the way it works-

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah. Not everything works [crosstalk 00:40:58]-

Kevin McCarthy:

... but if you're trying enough... Yeah. But I think the trick is recognizing when you failed or recognizing when you got to double down that you know it's going to work and I think that's... you must have figured something out on there, because you're just-

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, I think personality wise, and I know Todd knows me on this is that, I'm going to go... I may not have all the steps in place because I'm not that kind of a person at all who has to have everything ready before I take a chance. I'm going to go take a chance and then, okay, well boy, did I just screw it up or do I make this work?

Todd Tramonte:

Well, I'll say this because Cindy's in our mastermind group so we get to see her implement a lot of this, but I don't know of a skill or a commitment any better than just refusing to give up. I mean, again, I don't want to say anything that Cindy doesn't want to say herself but, I mean, even within the last 12 months, there were some times where Cindy was not as optimistic and chipper as she is at the moment.

Todd Tramonte:

There were some hard times, but when you're running with people that will push you and challenge you and encourage you, and you have the grit and creativity that Cindy has, you really can't lose. That's not just an anecdote. For anyone watching this live or recorded, whatever you're going through right now, get some people around you that will encourage you and push you and just refuse to quit. Just refuse to quit.

Todd Tramonte:

I tell my son that all the time like, "We just don't give up, dude." There are times that you changed directions. You're like, "I don't want to have that business anymore, but I'm not giving up as a provider for my family or as a business owner, or as a contributing member of society. I'm not just going to have a pity party for six months." Oil spills, hurricanes, COVID, no pity parties.

Todd Tramonte:

Hard stuff happens but, I mean, again, I'm not going to share any more than Cindy wants to share, but there is a part of this year where lots of hard stuff was happening, and whether she knew it or not, she encouraged and inspired a lot of us because she just didn't give up. It's just [crosstalk 00:43:03]-

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, and earlier when we were talking, Todd was talking about who he likes to recruit and work with. I'm an athlete. I was an athlete in high school, went to college, I was an athlete. Now, this is way back in the '70s. I'm a little older than all of you. I coached college sports before I got my PhD. I was a college coach, so I have that determination behind me and also, from the standpoint that, yeah, I'm not going to give up. It may go sideways. I can handle the sideways. When it goes down, yeah, cut your losses and move on. But that's always what I've done throughout my career. This is a great question, Kevin, because yeah, sometimes there's been some real whoppers that [crosstalk 00:43:53]-

Todd Tramonte:

Well, I mean, and Cindy's talking about, before this call, we were on our group mastermind call so it's bleeding together. I've been on Zoom for four and a half hours now, I think. A question came up on who we hire and how we hire. I was saying that one of the key attributes of salespeople that I look for is former team sports athletes. They're team players, they're coachable. They want to win for the team. They make sacrifices. They're coachable. I mean, all those things. That's where the thought she just shared, that's where that started.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

[crosstalk 00:44:23].

Todd Tramonte:

That's where that started. Cindy, would you share, again, this is not about Real Geeks, but we appreciate Real Geeks providing and sponsoring, allowing us to talk. We met through Real Geeks. We met through the, really the first Real Geeks User Conference and then we don't have to talk about coaching group that much, but you came to an incubator and joined us and then have been a part of our mastermind. But, can you share with anybody who may have never been to one of those events what that's done for you and the connections you've made or how that's spring-boarded you forward?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Absolutely. I was talking to Kevin earlier because the first... how I was introduced to Real Geeks was actually a gentleman here in town, he said, "You need to have a Real Geeks website." I said, "Okay, whatever." He put me in touch. He did it all. He put it all together and everything and then all of a sudden, I got this email from Kevin, I guess, or assuming, because I didn't know Todd yet so you couldn't have had my email, this Unofficial Real Geeks event in Dallas.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, I used to live there so I have friends there. I said, "Oh, okay, we'll go to Dallas and I'll hang out with my friends and I'll go to this conference." I have used the website better than I did in the beginning. When I was there for the first time, I guess two years ago the Unofficial was very impressed with what Todd had put on for the workshop and Kevin when you were there and introducing, and just got a really good feel for the crowd that was there.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Everybody was very receptive and met a ton of people that we're still in contact with. Then I had signed up for the incubator thing, event, which ended up in Dallas before we... I guess it was February or something, I don't know, but that got me more into the group and then also because of the listing a week and the buyer a week program that Todd had, and I went through that and did everything.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I'm a learner and I like to do... if I get in, especially if I'm going to spend the money, I'm going to learn it and listen to all of the videos that Todd had. When you start talking like Todd, it's like, "Oh gosh, really?" [crosstalk 00:46:33]. You've listened to it too often. But, to then implement those things and then do this year in our mastermind group and incorporating Real Geeks, the website itself and the CRM and what it can do and the things that you have added to it and throughout the year, and what's coming in the future that you've been able to tell us of what's coming in the future, I just think is a fantastic website first off and the CRM and everything is all right there.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I don't even know if you know this Todd or not, but I used to work for Top Producer. Way back when I left academia, I started working for Top Producer as a salesperson. I still have a Top Producer account. It's real cheap because I worked for them so long ago but I got into the sales part of it. Yeah, so-

Todd Tramonte:

I did not [crosstalk 00:47:27]-

Kevin McCarthy:

I did not know that, that is interesting.

Todd Tramonte:

... [crosstalk 00:47:29] done the interview about that, Kevin. We [crosstalk 00:47:31] that.

Kevin McCarthy:

Yeah. Yeah, we'll do a follow-up on that one, Top Producer would love it.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah. [inaudible 00:47:37]. I use it a lot. It's got my whole career in real estate in Top Producer, because I haven't [inaudible 00:47:44].

Todd Tramonte:

One thing I loved about what you shared Cindy was, of course, I appreciate you talking about the value of our mastermind group and group coaching and all that, but the Real Geeks event and the people there, the feel you got from this community. Now, Kevin knows this well. The technology is great. He built it. The additions are great. He and his team are putting those things. They're listening and they're building it out for people, so if you're not a Real Geeks user, check it out. I mean, you're crazy.

Todd Tramonte:

But, the point is, if you engage with the community also, amazing things happen, amazing things happen. We're connecting with people in markets across the country. Like we said before, "Well, I'm in a vacation market." Great, there's a bunch of people in vacation markets, let's talk to each other. "Well, I'm in a second home market." "So am I, let's talk about it." This idea that, that won't work for me or the site's no good in my situation or that doesn't work in my market or whatever, it's all bogus.

Todd Tramonte:

Those connections are as valuable maybe as the technology itself and there's a lot of groups, but I have not found one that's like this Real Geeks community. Again, I know I'm careful. Kevin's always telling me, "This isn't a commercial for Real Geeks," so I'll be careful, but I have experienced the same thing and I hosted the meeting, two years in a row now and we're going to do it again this year, October 19th, 20th and 21st. You can go check out information about it at urguc.com, Unofficial Real Geeks User Conference, urguc.com.

Todd Tramonte:

But, it's not a pitch for that, it's just a reminder that even as a host, those connections I made, getting to be able to sit in a room and shake Kevin's hand, look him in the eye and meet his staff and meet the tech support, this is not normal. This doesn't happen. This is free. You can watch Keeping it Real for free. This is not normal. I loved that I got to meet Cindy there and see her business grow and now introduce her to the world and say like, "Check out what she's doing. You can do this too. You can do this too."

Todd Tramonte:

A year or two ago Cindy would have said, "There's no way I should be interviewed on that thing," and now she loves sharing what she's doing and helping other people. I see her do it in our group every week, and now she's getting to do it on a bigger stage so I love it. I just, I wanted to hear you tell that story and I wanted other people to hear you talk about, the technology is awesome. You do know technology, you have a PhD, but the connections are also valuable.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, and I also think too is, that the amount of support and everything that you can get from the Facebook site, from this with Real Geeks is way different than any other software program I've ever had or worked with. Kevin, that's a huge compliment to what you've put together and to be able to... because as realtors, oh my gosh, we get bombarded with everybody in the world for every type of product you could ever think about and-

Kevin McCarthy:

Well, thank you. Thank you. That means a lot, but I don't want this to get too much about Real Geeks, but it's [crosstalk 00:50:49], but thank you, that's... I love [crosstalk 00:50:53] I love to hear that. We're getting a lot of questions in here. I think everyone's really fascinated with your business and they'd like to contact you, either to send you a referral or figure out how to just mastermind with you or learn more about what you're doing. What's the best way for people to get in touch?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, you can call me. I have my phone. I'll give you my phone number. It's 850-393-5134. I guess, is there a chat here or not? I don't even know. 850-393-5134 and-

Kevin McCarthy:

Yeah, I'll throw that in the chat.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah. Okay. My email is Cindy, C-I-N-D-Y @ move, M-O-V-E, the number two and then F-L-A, like Florida, fla.com.

Kevin McCarthy:

Yeah. Cindy with and I or with a Y?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Oh, C-I-N-D-Y.

Kevin McCarthy:

Y. Cindy with a Y. Got it.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah. @move2fla.com

Kevin McCarthy:

Got it. I just put those in chat, so-

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

My Real Geeks website is www.gulfcoasthomeexperts.com.

Kevin McCarthy:

Thank you.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

It's [crosstalk 00:52:05] including the whole revamping.

Kevin McCarthy:

Excellent.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

It's going to be good.

Kevin McCarthy:

Great. Great. Someone in chat is saying, "What would you recommend for a newbie in the Midwest during COVID?"

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Oh gosh, Midwest during COVID, jeez.

Kevin McCarthy:

Yeah. We do get this question a lot because we have these folks on here, "Wow. These realtors have it figured out. How do I get where they are?" It's interesting everyone has a different answer.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, my real short stints in the Midwest was when I was a professor at Iowa State University and I didn't know how cold, cold can be.

Kevin McCarthy:

So, your advice is put on a coat?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

I'm a native Floridian, so I don't know if I can answer that question because I'm in a community in an area where the sun's out and we can go outside and we can go to the beach and we don't have snow. We're in an area also for COVID, doesn't seem like people... they want to have open houses. They want to see houses. We are very protect, I'm very... because wear the mask and everything like that. I don't know. That's a great question. How would you-

Todd Tramonte:

I'll take a shot at that one if you want me to Kevin.

Kevin McCarthy:

Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't have to be Midwest. Just, what would you say to a newbie in these times? What's something that they could do to kick their business off the ground?

Todd Tramonte:

Yeah, I would just say for the entirety of your time in this business, your job every day is to build relationships. Now, if that's got to be virtual, if that's got to be phone, texts, emails, social media, video, whatever, then so be it because in your market right now, you might not be able to go to lunch and coffee and parties and all that stuff, as often as you like, or do open houses or whatever.

Todd Tramonte:

But, I got to let you in on a secret here, person who asked that question. Most of our communication is not live and in-person even pre COVID. You develop your skill on the phone, connecting with people through social media, one-to-one and one to many, and you'll have a phenomenal career ahead of you. Get over the discomfort of calling your friends, get over the discomfort of calling their friends, acquaintances. Expand your circle.

Todd Tramonte:

Find everyone you know who has a wedding, a wedding shower, a birthday, who's built a guest list and say, "Hey, you remember Rick that we went to high school with? You don't have his contact info, do you?" Do that ugly hard work now while you're new and it will benefit you for the rest of your career. You can set them up on a Real Geeks website with a market report or on any other market report. You could start doing a digital newsletter or a physical newsletter, which I definitely recommend.

Todd Tramonte:

Reach out to people and say, "Hey man, how are you doing? Are you cooped up like me?" Just start building relationships and good things will happen. I wrote a book a couple of years ago called The Five Lies That Will Ruin Your Real Estate Career, but the second half of it is actually the 12 truths. One of them, number one, is talk to a lot of people about real estate. You don't have to sell them something today, you actually can't sell real estate on the phone, but you can build relationships.

Todd Tramonte:

When people all come out of hibernation, which hopefully someday soon we will, those that are ready to do real estate stuff will want to connect with you. Those that are going to do it five years from now, hopefully you'll do that well for the next five years. Don't use the excuse that COVID has ruined your start. That's dumb. Don't do that. Just start building relationships, just start building more relationships and deeper relationships and good things will happen. We could get more tactical than that, but that's something that I think everyone can use.

Kevin McCarthy:

[crosstalk 00:55:49]. Todd, you can't sell real estate on the phone?

Todd Tramonte:

I have never been able to transact real estate completely on a phone call in my life, Kevin. If you've got that figured out, you let me know, I'll interview you anytime you want.

Kevin McCarthy:

Okay. You got it.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, and then some of the things that I have done in the past is I have done seminars, because I love speaking and stuff like that, 1031 tax exchange or a self-directed IRA or things like that and that's pulled in more investors. We just haven't done it this year.

Todd Tramonte:

We did. We did a how to buy and sell during COVID virtual seminar and it worked out really well, so that's something somebody could do too.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Even though with technology and stuff, I like being in person still, but yeah, everything that Todd... it's just, get out there, if you're referral-based talk to... I have a brand-new agent that I have, is only 26-years-old but she knows everybody in town. I said, "I need your database, give me a hundred names," and she said, "Ta-ta, ta-ra, ra-ra." Wrote them all out. We sent them a letter introducing her to the company and to real estate and she got her five or six people that started saying, "Oh yeah, I think I want to buy a house," and she has no clue what she was doing to start with, but she just listened to me and then did it.

Kevin McCarthy:

Cindy, where did she find her a hundred names? Did she have them in her phone or were they in a CRM or?

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

She had them in her phone.

Kevin McCarthy:

They were in her phone, so all she did was went through her phone, found a hundred people that she could talk to and then call them up and just [crosstalk 00:57:18]-

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

She texted them. She said, "Give me your address. I need to send you something." Then [inaudible 00:57:23] and we sent her Christmas cards out too and everything. She was just [crosstalk 00:57:28]-

Kevin McCarthy:

There you go.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

... this is pretty easy, but she does have a big database of people.

Kevin McCarthy:

Yeah, but she didn't know it was a database. She thought it was just called cell phone.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

It was her family. Yeah, it's just people she knows, yeah. We're getting ready to do a video on her because she's barrel racer, horses, barrel, and so she wants me to do a video with her horse, going to a neighborhood to show a house out in the middle of Ranch Town. We're going to do that with a drone, and follow her with the horse to go show a house. That's kind of cool.

Kevin McCarthy:

Very cool.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah.

Kevin McCarthy:

Very cool. Desi from the Midwest says, "Thank you. I'll put on my coat and start calling."

Todd Tramonte:

Stay warm Desi, stay warm.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yes Desi.

Kevin McCarthy:

That's the way to go. [crosstalk 00:58:20]-

Todd Tramonte:

Quickly, research says the average person has around 200 people at their wedding or their funeral. That just means we all have a couple of hundred people in our environment that we know enough to show up at something, so those are the people that start with.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Yeah. That's the best ones too.

Kevin McCarthy:

Makes sense. Well, we're up against time here, so we'll actually end this one on time for a change. Cindy, thank you so much for telling your story, it's inspiring. I'm trying to think it in my own business, in my own life, are there things that I can just try? Maybe they'll work, maybe they won't. Nobody else is doing them so if they work, then I'll have a unique advantage, so I'm thinking about that.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Well, here's the other thing, and I'm a teacher by trade, I will help or assist anybody that has questions. I'd be glad to share because I enjoy sharing and that's how our group with... our mastermind group is sharing. Yeah, please either call me or send me an email, I'll be glad to communicate with you. I know that not everybody would want to do what I do or have that ability or want to start establishing the maintenance crew and all that stuff, but short-term rentals are easy to start with.

Kevin McCarthy:

Very cool. Very cool. Todd as always, thanks for your hosting and your insight.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Thank you.

Kevin McCarthy:

Well, if you haven't already, make sure you go to keepingitreal.com. That's where you can put in your email address and we'll notify you every time a new one of these Keeping it Reals comes out. We usually do once a month. Also, check out our Facebook page and I think we're even on iTunes, if you want to subscribe to this as a podcast and just listen to the audio if you're on the road or whatever, that's a good way to listen to this. Thank you everyone and we'll see you on the next.

Todd Tramonte:

Thanks Kevin.

Dr. Cynthia Tant:

Thank you Kevin. Thank you Todd. Okay, how